The “J” Word
When I called Wynton to set up the interview, he told me his address. His apartment number ends in “J.” I choked back a laugh and asked him, “‘J’ as in ‘jazz?’”
He replied, very quietly, “No doubt.”
Towards the end of our interview, he said, “ Jazz – for a name that nobody wants – there's been a lot of contest around it. I started saying at the beginning -- I like the name of it. I like the music. I don’t have any problems with it."
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It’s been amusing telling people that I interviewed Wynton Marsalis for the blog: some are thrilled, but many are horrified. Since he’s such a polarizing figure, it doesn’t seem enough to merely post the interview without clarifying my own position.
Those thrilled with me giving space to Wynton on DTM see him as the man in the unenviable position of trying to gain respect for pure jazz music based on swing, blues, and a certain kind of African-American atmosphere: Louis Armstrong, Duke Ellington, Billie Holiday, Charlie Parker, Thelonious Monk, Miles Davis before his electric music, John Coltrane before his rubato music, and so forth.
Those who are horrified by me giving space to Wynton on DTM resent his vast power and influence in service of this lineage of jazz to the exclusion of others.
As an artist who celebrates (and performs) all sorts of improvised music that has nothing to with the blues or swing, I have sympathy for this second perspective. Here is a partial list of theories, styles, and musicians seemingly not embraced in the Wynton Marsalis vision of jazz. (By this point, Wynton has learned not to criticize any of this music unduly: "That music is that music, but it's not jazz." I don't really support this, simply because of economics - all the people who embrace these traditions need places to play, and if you took "jazz" away from them there would be fewer options.)
Classical music, especially dense modernism and minimalism
Experimental, avant-garde, or free jazz made or influenced by musicians like Albert Ayler, Cecil Taylor, Milford Graves, the AACM school (including Anthony Braxton and Henry Threadgill), and the BAG school (including Oliver Lake and Julius Hemphill). This category naturally includes Downtown metajazz like John Zorn, and of course anyone playing hardcore New York free jazz today like William Parker, to say nothing of those more recent composers and improvisers like Tim Berne and Dave Douglas who have uncompromisingly sought unique intervallic melodies unconcerned with whether they were “really jazz” or not.
Romantic and even-eighth-note “pretty” music associated with Keith Jarrett, Pat Metheny, ECM, and Europe. (In fact, even-eighth note-music in general is rejected if not part of the “Spanish tinge” lineage of jazz music by Jelly Roll Morton, Horace Silver and others.)
One-of-a-kind rogue improvisers who are major stylists in both free and straight-ahead music like Paul Motian, Charlie Haden, Paul Bley, Steve Lacy, Kenny Wheeler, Dewey Redman, Eric Dolphy, Richard Davis, etc. (I am fairly certain even Jack DeJohnette is not truly accepted.)
I'm not sure that Wynton would entirely agree with this list - he might point to one or two musicians and say, "No, they are really jazz." But it is inarguable that the impression he gives is one of rejection - "It's not jazz" unless specific criteria are met.
When I was younger, this high-handedness bothered me, but not anymore (with the caveat that I don't want anyone to lose work because of it). I really enjoyed reading Wynton’s latest excellent book, Moving to Higher Ground: How Jazz Can Change Your Life. There is a basic truth to his message that - even though it is not for me to follow personally - I find much more convincing than most of the comparatively flaccid jazz education I have been around. If I had the chance to study with Wynton Marsalis, I certainly would, and hope that most younger musicians would want to study with him too. He is like jazz aspirin: take two once in a while to remind yourself of the basics.
Wynton’s message may not open creative doors; indeed, he wants young players to do only one thing, real jazz! But minor tyrants who really know their subject and make their students learn it just so are an important tradition, too.
I don’t fetishize NYC as a training ground for young jazz players, but it’s nevertheless true that almost everyone I can think of who is a real New York jazz player has some story about getting told off by an irritated older cat on the bandstand, something like, “Quit horsing around and play, motherfucker!” For some, those experiences were discouraging, but in most cases they helped the younger musician get more serious.
In my opinion, aesthetics can’t be taught. Every serious artist has to find their own path; listening inside yourself is the only answer. After learning from minor tyrants or irritable legends, it’s really up to the artist to metaphorically kill them off and pursue their own aesthetics. It should come as no surprise those who both read DTM and listen to TBP that I am interested in the study of straight-ahead jazz at home and the rejection of it on the bandstand.
During our interview, Wynton played a chorus of blues piano. (It’s posted in the transcript as a brief Mp3 in part one.) This chorus is some of the best blues piano I have ever heard.
He also gave me a clear message, right away, to listen to Billie Holiday for rhythm. I’ve been around this music for over 20 years and no one else has ever told me that. He’s right, of course.
And he is a major voice on his instrument. While I enjoyed studying Congo Square, I was disappointed that there were no Marsalis trumpet solos on it. At some point, I hope Wynton quits the big band and the JALC altogether and becomes just a goddamn good trumpeter again. Try this video of Cherokee. No one else has ever played the trumpet like that. (Also, any DTM regulars not up to speed on the Wynton Marsalis controversy can check out the comments!)
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That's my general position; amplification follows. I've never been a member, close observer or participant in the musical or social movements discussed below, s0 I'm certainly not the final authority. Dialogues with the musicians involved are required for the complete truth be understood. (I expect I'll be hearing from a few of them on this one!)
But it is time to at least take a stab at clearing the air. Perusing these posts in order is recommended.
1. Young Lion Jazz of the 80’s
2. Four Early Wynton Marsalis/Jeff Watts records
3. Current Perceptions
4. An Old Feud
5. Reading the Black Jazz Writers
These posts will displease those who have criticized DTM in the the past for having essays that are just too long. However, my feeling is that the problem is more that they are just not long enough. These posts - like previous long posts - are actually sorely incomplete and ephemeral. I rue how concrete the written word is, and wish that I could footnote every paragraph with the caveat, “The author reserves the right to change his mind as soon he has heard another record or talked to another smart musician.”
